INTERVIEW WITH JOURNALIST PARIS KARVOUNOPOULOS BY THE FORMER AMBASSADOR OF THE STATE OF PALESTINE TO GREECE, MR. MARWAN EMIL TOUBASSI ON THE MILITAIRE.GR CHANNEL
P.K.: Paris Karvounopoulos
M. T.: Marwan Toubassi
P.K.: Ladies and gentlemen, hello. What is happening in Gaza is horrific, inhumane, it is genocide. I do not think we need to discuss further, whether or not it is genocide, or whether what we read and see happening every day in Gaza is horrific. We will discuss all this with a Palestinian, the former Palestinian Ambassador to Greece, Mr. Marwan Emil Toubassi. Mr. Ambassador, thank you for this interview.
M.T. Thank you, it is my pleasure.
P.K. Mr. Ambassador, I would like you to describe the situation in Gaza and ask you what the Israeli army is doing there.
M.T. Thank you, Mr. Karvounopoulos, for this interview. It is always a pleasure for me to address the Greek people. As you know, we have close friendly ties, historical ties, and much in common. That is why it is always a pleasure for me to be in Greece, where I lived for nine years as Palestinian Ambassador.
I would like to begin by saying that the issue is not only Gaza, nor only the West Bank; the issue is the attempt to implement Israel’s Zionist plan and narrative, which concerns all of historic Palestine.
You know that in 1948, there were also displacements during which massacres, destruction, and crimes were committed.
I would like to mention the holocaust of 1948, during which, my own family was also displaced from Jaffa (now Tel Aviv) and went to the West Bank of the Jordan River, where we have remained from 1948 to the present day.
After the Oslo Accords, what Israel tried to do, in my opinion, was to create a political trap for us Palestinians. At that time, President Arafat wanted to return to his homeland and from there try to establish a state on every inch of free land.
This was a vision that was not crowned with success, as Israeli President Rabin was assassinated by Zionists in order to end any discussion of the Oslo Accords, which provided for a transitional period of five (5) years, after which the details of the outstanding issues would be discussed, namely the issue of Jerusalem, the borders, the return of refugees, and the establishment of a Palestinian state.
The Israeli side then recognized the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) and not the Palestinian State, while we proceeded to recognize the State of Israel, not as a Jewish state but as a state.
The meeting at Camp David, where the agreements between Palestine and Israel were signed, followed this.
Since then, there has been a clear and increasing construction of illegal colonial settlements in the West Bank. Today, there are approximately one million Israeli settlers in the occupied West Bank and approximately two hundred and fifty (250) colonial settlements covering approximately 62% of the total area of the West Bank, on which the Palestinian state should be established.
That is, in the West Bank territories occupied in 1967, which include Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip.
Therefore, this is not the first time it has attacked Gaza; it is the fourth or fifth time since they imposed the embargo on the Strip seventeen years ago.
What is happening in Gaza is genocide. This is not something that only we Palestinians are saying; everyone is saying it. Even international human rights organizations say that the crime being committed is genocide, as is the practice of imposing famine on our people that is taking place there.
Repeated attempts to displace our people from all of Gaza. In the areas that were bombed, as you know, we have approximately sixty-three thousand (63,000) dead and two hundred thousand (200,000) wounded. Gaza is no longer a place to live after what has happened and, unfortunately, continues to happen even now…
We see it on television; every day, around one hundred people are being killed by the Israeli bombings, and now they are considering invading and occupying the city of Gaza, as they did before 1967.
However, what is taking place in the West Bank is a plan of annexation, seizing more land and building settlements. It is a way of implementing Zionist ideas and plans in the West Bank, which for them is something they believe in based on the Torah or Talmud.
It is a Zionist religious vision for the Israelis. Moreover, not only for the Israelis, but also for the Americans, who are their partners in what is happening.
In addition, in Gaza and the West Bank, they give the green light to everything that is happening and allow the Israeli government to occupy or even annex the West Bank.
So now, in their minds, there will no longer be occupied territories, there will only be Israel. As they did in 1982 with East Jerusalem, which they unified.
Their issue now is that they want to dissolve the Palestinian National Question. Therefore, there will no longer be Palestinians who will claim their rights, their national and political rights.
Our historical rights to our homeland!
We are the people of these lands, of this earth!
These people—and we have nothing against the Jews—but these people came from Europe after the Holocaust, which of course we Palestinians condemn.
However, when you study history, you understand that what happened was a kind of agreement between the Nazis of the Third Reich and the World Zionist Movement to send Jews to Palestine. Thus, the first fleet of Jewish immigrants from Europe was German. That is when the settlements began.
Before that, we lived together with Jews there, we as Christian or Muslim Palestinians. They were also considered as Palestinians.
Now, back to what is happening now, as I said earlier, the issue is not just Gaza. The same strategy permeates all of Palestine. It concerns our people who have been living in Israel since 1948 and are subject to this discriminatory law, which was adopted by the Knesset and is rife with ideas of Jewish racial superiority.
P.K. There is great support for the Palestinians around the world. On the other hand, we see Western leaders who do not seem to be doing anything to stop the genocide in Gaza.
M.T. We do not see European governments or Western leaders doing anything. As for the US government, that is another matter, as it is a partner of Israel. They have much in common in terms of ideology and strategy. The US itself was built on laws of segregation and genocide against the indigenous populations that already lived in America.
Therefore, we see many similarities between the two, economically, politically, religiously, the Christian Zionists, the neoconservatives who still rule the US.
As for the EU, we are happy to see that many countries will recognize the State of Palestine at the upcoming UN General Assembly. My president, Mahmoud Abbas, is not being allowed to participate in this assembly, as the US refused to issue him a visa. This blatantly violates any notion of legitimacy and constitutes a gross violation of international law.
The US leadership did the same thing against President Arafat in 1988, when the UN General Assembly was moved to Geneva.
That is what we are asking for today. If Europe wants to be more responsible and assume its moral and political responsibilities, it must also request that the UN General Assembly be moved to Geneva.
Europe must cease to act as a partner of the US on strategic and foreign policy issues, particularly those concerning the Middle East.
France, England, and other European countries will proceed with the recognition of the Palestinian State. Other European countries recognized the State of Palestine in 1988, countries of the Eastern Bloc at the time. However, there were other countries that did not do so, even though in many of them, as was the case here in Greece in December 2015, where all parties unanimously called on the Greek government to proceed with the recognition of the State of Palestine, this happened in Britain, France, Italy, and Luxembourg.
Today, these countries are ready to proceed with recognition. This is positive, but it is not enough.
There must also be a political impact.
And what I mean is… They must take measures against Israel as an occupying state, as a state, that is committing genocide against the Palestinians.
As they do with Russia and Iran. Why don’t they do it with Israel?
The occupation will not end on its own. It will not end with protests, and I say this with all due respect to everything that is being done around the world. Nevertheless, it is the states and governments that must take measures, serious measures against the Israeli government, the fascist Israeli government.
All previous Israeli governments bear responsibility for what has happened so far, and this is the result.
You know, the lack of understanding of what peace means, not only for the Palestinians but also for the Israelis themselves, for future generations, for the entire region, so that we can have security and stability.
As long as this continues, the region will have neither security nor stability, and I do not mean only the Middle East, I mean the wider region that includes Greece and Cyprus.
Because now, when Netanyahu talks about Greater Israel, he includes Cyprus. He is not only referring to Palestine, he is talking about parts of Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria. This is the reason for what happened in Syria; it is part of the reshaping of the Middle East based on the American plan for the New Middle East, of which the Zionist plan for Greater Israel is also a part.
P.K.: What do you think Israel’s goal is for Gaza?
M.T.: As I said, it is to reshape the region. They will not stop what they are doing there, and I think that tonight the Israeli parliament (Knesset) will discuss the recapture of Gaza City. Netanyahu will not accept any kind of ceasefire. You know not even a humanitarian ceasefire or even negotiations on what is happening between Hamas and Israel with the mediation of Qatar, Egypt, and the participation of the United States, which is not a mediator, but a partner of Israel. As was evident from the meeting at the White House attended by Witkoff, Blair, and Kushner (S. Witkoff, T. Blair, J. Kushner) participated.
So now, I think they will try to use all their power against our people in Gaza. In addition, of course they will intensify their operations by declaring the city of Gaza a Dangerous Combat Zone.
At the same time, the bombings have intensified. As I told you, every day more and more of our people are being killed. Beyond the bombs, there is also the crime of imposing a plague. Blockade even from the air, children dying of hunger.
Right now, Israel has imposed a plague on Gaza, and the entire international community condemns it—but condemnation alone cannot stop this. Action is required, which is why I said earlier that measures must be taken against Israel. At the very least, the plague it has imposed on Gaza must be stopped.
This is a crime against humanity!
This has not happened since 1948, since World War II. We have seen bombings since then; the United States has bombed many countries around the world, but we have never seen such an attempt to spread destruction in modern history. All of this is happening in Gaza in parallel with what is happening in the West Bank.
All this is happening in Gaza in parallel with what is happening in the West Bank.
Tonight in the Knesset, they will discuss the annexation of the West Bank, which has already been discussed in the White House between Trump, Witkoff, Blair, Kushner (S. Witkoff, T. Blair, J. Kushner) and several other American and Israeli officials.
They discussed the possibility of giving the green light to implement their plan.
I believe that they themselves think that since they managed to “reshape” Syria, and after what they did in Lebanon and Hezbollah, they want to defeat any form of resistance.
Whether it is military or political resistance, any resistance to American plans for the New Middle East.
The United States and Israel do not accept any form of resistance to their plans! That is why they did what they did in Iran, Yemen, and Iraq.
That is why they did what they did in Iran, Yemen, and Iraq.
Therefore, that is the plan now, Greater Israel and the wider Middle East.
P.K.: We read about Trump’s plans to build a new Riviera in Gaza. What do you think about these scenarios?
M.T.: Honestly, I do not know what to say, how this man thinks or dreams. I do not know what is wrong with him…
Everyone is puzzled and concerned about his personality and his morbidity, not only us Palestinians but also the whole world.
Nevertheless, the issue is not Trump; the issue is the Christian Zionists, the people who support Israel for ideological reasons.
Although there were some officials in the White House – who were subsequently removed – who expressed the view that Israel is a burden on America, on its foreign policy, on its economy. They argued that the US cannot afford to face the international outcry and reaction caused by Israel’s crimes in Palestine.
Who created Israel though? The United States and Britain themselves, since the time of the Balfour Declaration. Even Zionism, as an ideology, was conceived there in the United States, spread to Britain, and the Balfour Declaration was issued. Even Zionism, as an ideology, was created there in the US, spread to Britain, and the Balfour Declaration was exactly that. The construction of an expansionist colonial state.
This is still the case today. You may recall when Trump said, “If Israel didn’t exist, we would have invented it,” so this is not a matter of mediators pressuring the Palestinians to find a solution.
The Riviera is something they themselves consider part of the economic benefits of this New Middle East, as they want to get their hands on the region’s ports.
When we talk about the geopolitics of the wider region, we mean that it is also part of America’s war with Russia, China, the BRICS, and the emerging economies around the world.
All this is part of a broader context of parallel events, such as the war in Ukraine. There they talk about Eurasia and here they talk about the New Middle East. That is why they must maintain the states that support US policies in the Middle East, such as the Gulf States, which talk about reaching a political agreement with Israel based on the Abraham Accords plan.
P.K.: The Greek people have close ties with Palestine. How do you view the Greek government’s stance on the Gaza issue?
M.T.: We have always maintained close relations with the Greek people. You may recall when President Arafat came to Athens at the invitation of Prime Minister Andreas Papandreou. At that time, no Arab capital would accept him, so he came here. He received a warm welcome and hospitality from Papandreou, the PASOK party at the time, and the Greek people themselves.
The Greek people have a long anti-colonial history.
The Greeks defended their homeland against Italian and then German occupation. That is why, before we went on air, I told you that we have a lot in common. This is one of them; both our peoples have been under Ottoman occupation.
400 years of occupation, so you understand the importance of freedom. Furthermore, Greece is the historical cradle of democracy, and we learn a lot from you.
Now, governments are another matter. First, governments come and go, but what expresses the thoughts of the Greek people is evident in the streets, on the islands, in small and large cities, in Athens, Thessaloniki, everywhere.
Huge demonstrations are taking place throughout Greece in solidarity with and support for Palestinian demands and condemnation of Israel’s crimes against our people.
I will tell you something. Two weeks before I came here, I was in Ramallah, in my president’s office, and my diplomatic advisor told me that Mr. Mitsotakis had called President Abbas and they had discussed the issue of the UN General Assembly. Mr. Mitsotakis said that there is great support for the Palestinians from the Greek people and that he knows that good relations with Israel cannot be maintained forever. That is what Mr. Mitsotakis said.
The Greek government cannot support its interests without condemning genocide in international organizations and forums.
It must also proceed with the recognition of the State of Palestine. As Israel has recognized, even though it has not defined its borders since its establishment to this day.
In 1947, based on Resolution 181 of the UN General Assembly, the State of Israel was established, which already extended beyond the borders defined by the resolution.
Greece nevertheless recognized Israel and at the same time declared its support for the Two-State Solution.
If it supports the Two-State Solution, then it must be fair in terms of the equality of the Two-State Solution.
Just as it recognizes Israel, it must also recognize the State of Palestine.
Then there can be negotiations between two states. One state and one occupied state.
Because that is what we intended to do officially during the UN General Assembly in New York. To declare exactly that as Palestinians.
We declared the establishment of the State in 1988, within the 1967 borders, when Yasser Arafat was still alive. Now, we must declare our occupied state since Israel wants to annex all of Palestine and since it does not abide by any of the agreements it has signed with us, the most important of which are the Oslo Accords.
We must declare our state under occupation within the borders prior to June 4, 1967.
So why does the Greek government not recognize the Palestinian state, as England, France, Italy, and many other countries do? Why don’t they?
Do they want to maintain relations with Israel? A genocidal state, a racist state. That is their decision. Moreover, it is up to Greek citizens to decide what they will do in the next elections. However, these are internal issues for the country and we have no say in them.
We maintain good relations with all states, especially those in the wider region, but I believe that Greece could articulate its own position, its own independent positions, especially on foreign policy issues, without supporting Israel’s actions against the Palestinian people. This has nothing to do with Turkey.
P.K.: There is a part of public opinion that argues that we should have good relations with Israel against Turkey. The same segment of public opinion believes that the Palestinians have better relations with Turkey. What is your response to these views?
M.T.: To tell you the truth, in my opinion, this is a false dilemma.
That is, Israel against Turkey and Palestine. This is not true at all. The dilemma is false when we talk about security and accept the occupation. Palestine maintains relations with all countries.
So Greece can perfectly well uphold the law and express its solidarity with the Palestinian people while at the same time protecting its national security. We would not want relations between Greece and Turkey to intensify in the wrong direction. However, that has nothing to do with our own relations. Greece is not obliged to choose between its security and the defense of human rights.
P.K.: You know that in Greece we say that hope dies last. Do you believe there is still hope for Palestine?
M.T.: Yes, of course. Hope is of strategic importance to us. It is not just an unattainable dream. We have been living under occupation since 1948. We have not given up. We will never give up! This is our homeland.
For our part, we have recognized Israel. We have accepted this state and we have accepted 22% of the total historical territory of Palestine as our own state. These are our historical and inalienable rights, our human rights. To live in security and stability like other peoples in the world.
This is based on the principle of self-determination of peoples, which the international community owes to us Palestinians since 1948.
Why was Israel given the right to self-determination when they already have their own state?
Why should we not have our own state so that we can live in peace and security?
The issue, therefore, is not the recognition of Israel, which we have proceeded with. The issue is the absolute and violent displacement, the dissolution of the Palestinian National Question. What is important at this moment is to end the plague with the assistance of the international community.
We remain vigilant as we await the Knesset’s new announcements on the annexation of the West Bank, and we continue our struggle in the International Criminal Court and the International Court of Human Rights.
Israel must be held accountable, just as South Africa was when it had an apartheid regime, a racist state. Sanctions were imposed on South Africa at that time.
Today, we have sanctions against Iran and Russia.
So why is the European Union not taking action against this pariah state?
Hope for us is a strategy; we defend our rights and we defend our future!
P.K. Thank you very much for this interview.
M.T. Thank you, Mr. Karvounopoulos.
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